Chapters
(00:00) Craig James discusses the nonlinear career path and the importance of being useful in the world.
(04:23) Craig discusses the different flavors of linearity in career paths and reflects on how his true nature and interests were present since grade school.
(08:46) The catalyst for Craig James starting his own company was the realization that his corporate job was going away, and he saw it as an opportunity to reassess his career path.
(13:09) Craig discusses the concept of Ikigai and the importance of finding a career that aligns with one’s passion, skills, ability to monetize, and the world’s needs.
(17:32) Differentiation points of Craig James’ coaching approach include building their own methodologies and tools, co-coaching as a couple, and incorporating neuroscience knowledge into their coaching practice.
(21:55) The speaker discusses the importance of cooling the amygdala and utilizing coaching and consulting in career development.
(26:18) The definition of work and job has shifted, leading to a more blended and nonlinear career path.
(30:41) Craig James emphasizes the importance of personal alignment and human interaction in career paths.

Each week, we interview proven leaders from our network, to learn from their experiences, and share their Talent Attraction and Candidate Experience stories with you.

• Our mission is to promote the accomplishments of our guests
• Highlight the companies where they work and the services, and products that they offer
• Share success stories from their experiences and, most importantly
• Provide strategies for job seekers and advice to talent seeking to accelerate their careers.
  

Today’s guest is Craig James, Co-Founder Cat-Strat Services. Craig’s career evolved from IT Consulting and technology sales to starting a consulting company focused on executive coaching, leadership development, and strategy planning. He’s also an accomplished podcaster, speaker, and writer.  Craig shared many great insights including:

• The Three P’s Positional (executive) Professional (career) and Personal (life coaching)
• Part of his coaching methodology, ICPA : Industry, Company, Position, Activity
• The power of looking other humans directly in the eyes
• Building your personal brand

Navigating the Nonlinear Career Path: Insights from Craig James, Co-Founder Cat-Strat Services, A Career Catalyst

[00:00:00]  Ron Laneve: Hello and welcome to Episode 29 of the Bell Falls Search Focus on Talent podcast. I’m your host, Ron Laneve. Each week, we share the career stories of tech experts and marketing mavens, operational gurus, and sales leaders to illustrate how they have navigated the non linear career path.

Today’s guest began his career in technology, selling mainframe hardware on behalf of Unisys and Sun Microsystems. 

[00:00:24] Ron Laneve: Business units for a couple of IT services firms before starting a consulting company focused on executive coaching, leadership development, and strategy planning. He’s also an accomplished podcaster, speaker, and writer, and he’s one of the most authentic and caring people that I know. Very excited to introduce to you, Craig James, co founder of Cat Strat Services. Craig, thanks a lot for being here today. 

[00:00:52] Craig James: Ron, thrilled to be here, especially that last part. 

[00:00:56] Ron Laneve: As I’ve done a lot of these conversations, I’ve begun to focus more and more on, the nonlinear career path and how that has how that’s manifested itself for different individuals, whether it’s serendipity, whether it’s intentional decision making.

[00:01:10] Ron Laneve: And, you, my friend clearly have one of those and we’d love to hear more about that. If you could go through your career journey and again, talk about the hows and the whys along the way.

[00:01:21] Craig James: Thanks for asking. Thanks for the interest. I’m glad to be here. And hopefully what we discuss is use to your listeners. I think that’s a big part of the answer right there. That’s one of the things in the coaching world if we’re good at it, we learn to do, and that is always constantly checking in with what is of use. At the end of every coaching session my partner Sue, and I ask, what was most useful today? And that’s not to get accolades. But it’s to remind ourselves of what is truly useful in anything and everything we do. Credit to Michael Bungay Stainer on that of The Coaching Habit. He always professed to do that. And we do that and it’s a useful tool. 

[00:02:02] Craig James: Why do I bring that up? Is that, this journey called career. We have a tendency to, make it about us. Of course, it’s about our needs and our family, the earnings we require in these monetary symbol things that we trade as humans in our society to get food and shelter and the basics and maybe a bit more. But at the end of the day, it’s all about what are we doing that’s useful in this world. 

[00:02:31] Craig James: I have a question for you and that is, could you illuminate for me around what we mean when we’re talking about nonlinear? I have my own assumptions. And if you perceive I’ve had a Not so linear journey. I think that’s accurate. Could we start with you helping me understand what your definition of nonlinear really is? 

[00:02:48] Ron Laneve: Nonlinear to me is not working in the same industry your entire life. In sales maybe it’s Business Development Rep to Sales Manager to Sales Leader to VP of Sales to CSO. In technology, there’s similar examples. I would say it’s anything from not necessarily following a ladder, in a quasi straight line in one company or one industry. And what I found is typically most of these individuals that have followed that the nonlinear career path have ended up becoming entrepreneurs or starting their own businesses or have had no fear changing industries and even changing roles, whether they went from technology to sales or Marketing to human resources or claims writer to connected TV programmatic expert.

[00:03:43] Craig James: Our societal expectations and pressures often think in terms of an industry and a career path associated within that industry.

[00:03:53] Craig James: And like you said, tier one, two, three, step up, usually commensurate earnings. But what’s interesting about this not so linear discussion is there are other dimensions, I believe, that could be for example, exactly the same industry one’s entire life, but a shift in modality. That’s a version of nonlinearity.

[00:04:16] Craig James: As you were saying, step up the corporate ladder versus start my own. advanced materials enterprise versus the latter step within advanced materials and chemicals, let’s say. And I start my own thing. But the entrepreneurial ideation, the start, the creativity, the creator in any industry is different than an operator along a chain of progression.

[00:04:38] Craig James: So there’s different flavors of linearity or lack thereof, in my view that have to do with an industry or modality type. And then there’s another kind of thing that struck me as I was thinking about our chat today is the idea of whether a linearity continues from phase one to phase ten in retirement. Is it consistent with one’s true north and nature? 

[00:05:03] Craig James: I grew up in sales management, general management, I. T. as you describe. Then in 2000 one of the business units for which I was a director at that time, an area director. The area went away. So there wasn’t an area in Cleveland. I wasn’t one to be sure, let’s just go to the coasts. So my case it was either do something different or stay or go. And Sue always said, I wanted to be an entrepreneur and do my own thing. I didn’t even know it. I wasn’t aware of it. I inquired with a couple of friends, one in the nonprofit space, one in the for profit space, and they said, great you’d be a great advisor consultant. How about us? And we ended up having two clients before we had a company name and checking account, a check and didn’t know what to do with it. So it’s ironic cause we’re strategic planners in part. We’re doing more coaching now than anything else, but we didn’t have much of a strategic plan. We were off to the races. 

[00:05:58] Craig James: The point is I didn’t find out until later in life that some of the things I really enjoy doing, which is currently coaching, being part of conversations with people, podcasting were things that were part of my nature when I was in grade school, but I didn’t launch on that path.

[00:06:14] Craig James: The lack of linearity, or at least alignment started from the get go. It’s not like I hated sales, but my true north was a bit more creative, expressive, communicate, ideate philosophy. Not necessarily bang out numbers and grow sales. But I spent a good part of my life energy on growing sales.

[00:06:34] Ron Laneve: When did you understand that it was the kind of grade school characteristics or tendencies that, were behind what you’re doing now? 

[00:06:42] Craig James: You don’t notice them when they’re happening. So there’s a look back moment that I can think of a couple of them. And I played a bit part in high school play. First time it was ever in a live performance. It’s not like this was the Oscars, but there were a lot of kids that were really serious. Thespians had all the lead parts and I got the best actor award.

[00:07:02] Craig James: I maybe should have paid attention to that a little bit more. My loving parents were concerned about me having a career. So when I made the next play they advised it’s time to get a job. And I did. I didn’t go through with being in that next play. Looking back, not a regret thing but maybe there’s some other signals that happened early on.

[00:07:20] Craig James: And then somewhere around midlife, we just started our company and Sue and I were regrouping, setting up our home office. We were doing the virtual remote hybrid thing before we knew what a pandemic was. This was, back in the early 2000s. We’re cleaning up our offices and there’s this box. I found the old grade school cards. 

[00:07:38] Craig James: This is when people wrote stuff on paper, i. e. teachers would write the grade, and there was a place for narrative, subjective, qualitative comments. Whatever your grades weren’t the point, you read what was next to it. There was something akin to, I saw this when I was 30 something years old, Craig’s got a lot of potential he’s intelligent. But he spends way too much time talking with his neighbors.

[00:08:03] Craig James: I was podcasting back before we had computers, dammit. There were signals there. Maybe there’s a lesson that career discussions like this, you work in, brilliantly in the world of talent and thinking about what it is to work and what is career prep professional path mean.

[00:08:17] Craig James: Maybe we should sit down with her five, six, seven, eight, 13 year olds a little more seriously about what’s their real essence. They’re real gifts because they’re there ready to be unfolded. But yet, nope, we ought to do this. Got to do that. You have to do this. 

[00:08:32] Ron Laneve: I agree. AI is going to figure that out on our behalf for our children. 

[00:08:36] Craig James: What was the origin to starting CatStrat services? I know you’ve said how you did it, right? You had some opportunities before you actually started the company, was it just, Hey, I’m tired of the grind, at the corporate level. Was it this calling to help other people, what, was there some event that occurred? 

[00:08:53] Craig James: The catalyst was certainly the area going away for which your area director, that was certainly a wake up. So maybe there’s that there’s a point there. Is that we see those as bad events. Oh, God, what now? Thank God for it. And so maybe there’s a message there when we feel that doom or despair or worry or uncertainty. It’s a golden moment to reassess. 

[00:09:17] Craig James: I think one of the other key elements here is recognizing that we don’t recognize those things in us. Sometimes we just don’t. I’m not one to say, must have external reaffirmation, but if someone knows you and cares for you and they can see you like you can’t see yourself, that’s what we do in coaching, maybe listen. And Sue was the one, my partner in life, who said, Craig, you’ve always talked about doing your own thing.

[00:09:40] Craig James: I literally didn’t realize it. I literally didn’t realize it. Really? Oh, okay. And I started poking around with friends and that’s how we ended up getting the gigs and Launching the other thing that’s interesting about this, though, again, I’m repeating a point perhaps is that, I guess it was Steve Jobs who said that, you can only see 2020 looking back and now I realize how anti corporate grind I was.

[00:10:09] Craig James: In it I didn’t necessarily know it. I felt angst. I was getting out of shape. When we looked at my passport picture from a decade earlier, said, now, how is it that you look 10 years older? 10 years ago after we launched the firm. I could have been on a death path. Literally, I wasn’t healthy. I was so concerned about performance. I was maybe working myself to death. I don’t know if we’d be sitting here right now. So in retrospect, I didn’t realize how much I was I’m not a compliant machine component guy. I’m creative, expressive, anxious, curious, hungry, wandering, philosophical, but I did comply for years and it wasn’t good for me.

[00:10:53] Ron Laneve: So entrepreneurialism saves lives, I think is what you’re saying. 

[00:10:57] Craig James: In my case I’m not afraid to admit we’re lifestyle entrepreneurs. We were incurred, we were part of an incubator, part of an economic growth engine, they gave us an office, you’ve got to grow so many employees by such and such, build the CatStrat buildings, good for the economy.

[00:11:13] Craig James: We almost complied to the entrepreneurial death trap. Jeff Bezos is probably doing okay. And he started with a card table. I think he’s doing okay. If he saved his money. But for us, entrepreneurial path and a lifestyle entrepreneurship path for us might very well save my life. Sure. 

[00:11:31] Ron Laneve: That’s a really interesting statement. Everyone has their different perspectives, but you get pushed a lot to just don’t be a lifestyle business. What are you up to? Personal services firm or professional services firm. There’s nothing wrong with being a lifestyle firm and knowing what you want and who you want to work for and what problems you want to solve. I think that’s great to admit that and not struggle with that because frankly, I do a lot. 

[00:11:54] Craig James: I’m not ego less. My last job was the classic, I’ll never forget, the pride of the corner office, the conference, the little conference room table in the office, actually had two, a little meeting room table over here, and then a decorative table over there, all glass, pine trees, lights at night shining in because I’d be there working late, a little suit and, starch cuffs and all that, to now say, look it, Ron Sue and I had a coaching session late morning today, and you know what I did right before I got up to this chair right here? I was down there on the floor of sleeping, taking a nap. I was going to exercise and stretch and do some crunches. 

[00:12:34] Ron Laneve: So let’s talk about Cat-Strat in more detail. Where did the name come from? How have your services evolved over time? I think you alluded to that earlier. Probably focusing more on coaching these days. How and why have services evolved over time? And, how would you position who you guys are, what you guys are to the outside world right now?

[00:12:56] Craig James: Origin, evolution, offering. That’s what I’m hearing. Origin of name. We were very thoughtful about, what do we think we bring to the world? I think of Ikigai, if you’re familiar with Ikigai I K I G A I pronounced Ikigai, Japanese origin. What I love about Ikigai is it’s akin to, it’s a very Eastern sort of at its root, reason for being.

[00:13:22] Craig James: Quasi ontological philosophical way one’s way and Eastern philosophy has a very almost wordless approach to it of being. Westerners tend to apply it of course, the business and strategy. Jim Collins leader of nineties think and Built To Last and Good To Great. He came up with a hedgehog concept which is, finding your way venn diagram, Imagine three circles I love it. I’m really passionate about it. I can monetize it, make money, and I’m really good at it. 

[00:14:01] Craig James: Usually those things are interdependent, but sometimes we can be really great at something and not make any money, or we can make a lot of money but not really love it. If we can love it, make money, and we can be really good at it, find that intersection in the middle, you’re finding your Maybe not your true north, but you’re finding a sweet spot of what you’re meant to do, and finding both joy and satisfaction.

[00:14:22] Craig James: What I like about Ikigai is it adds a fourth circle, fourth dimension to that Venn diagram. In addition to, I love it, I’m great at it, I can monetize it. The fourth circle is, and the world needs it. And if you can find that diagram intersection of world needs it, I love it, I’m great at it, and can monetize it. Now you’re finding your true vocation. 

[00:14:46] Craig James: We didn’t think in terms of Ikigai or Hedgehog back in the year 2000. But we did think about what are we doing for whom? Maybe not the world, change the world, but we decided we are wanting to be catalytic. Shape change, at least influence it, trigger it. Hence catalyst. 

[00:15:07] Craig James: Strategy is an overused term these days. It was maybe newer back then. But with a strategic lens, we’re not going to come in and be your op support augment staff, then we might as well go get a job. We’re strategic in our mindset, we’re strategic in our approach and catalytic in the sense that we get in and get out.

[00:15:26] Craig James: We don’t become part of the system we catalyze it. The problem with that great, thoughtful brand was that catalyst strategies is hard to say pronounce spell and type. So somehow someone nicknamed us CatStrat for short and that stuck. So that’s the name. 

[00:15:41] Craig James: Evolution and offering how did it evolve? It evolved from I grew up in sales management, mostly in I.T. Guess what? Provided sales management, strategy and process, even training to a degree, mostly systems, improvement of sales process for tech companies. And it made sense. 

[00:16:01] Craig James: Things do evolve. Maybe sometimes we shift modality, but if we listen to what is part of a sequence, maybe it’s not a linear career path, but is there a linear logic? Okay, hold it. If there’s a sales problem, chances are there’s a strategy problem. If there’s a strategy problem, chances are there’s a leadership problem.

[00:16:19] Craig James: If there’s leadership problem, doesn’t have to be everything a problem chance for improvement. They’re usually humans of all. We evolve from sales strategy stuff to coaching through that logic. And when there’s leadership. And humans involved, chances are there’s individuals, individual leaders need to look within and thus the coaching.

[00:16:36] Craig James: So over 20 plus years, 23 years, we evolved from sales strategy, sales process to executive coaching, actually executive life and career coaching. We call it the three P’s Positional (executive) Professional (career) and Personal (life coaching). An integrated model because no longer are they separable. That only happened because we started in sales process.

[00:17:00] Craig James: It’s very difficult to think of about a personal, professional, positional coach. How did you get there from sales strategy? Guess what? There was a very make sense correlation. And so in that sense, it was very linear. 

[00:17:14] Craig James: But it wasn’t planned linear progression.

[00:17:18] Craig James: That’s true. Which gets back to your note. You sent me earlier when we were thinking about our chat today, is there some serendipity or is it intention? I think it’s combination. It’s mindfulness and awareness, but also trusting, listening, allowing, and following. We’re so prone to think we’ve got to make it happen, make things happen, have a plan, all the KPIs and OKR’s and all the rest.

[00:17:44] Craig James: Believe me, we’ve done metrics and milestones and you don’t get to A to Z without some ABC. I understand that. Yet when it comes to life and career, sometimes you gotta trust it and let it flow. Listen to your intuition. Listen to your grade card, your grade school card. 

[00:18:06] Ron Laneve: How do you differentiate yourself as a coach from all the other coaches that are out there and everyone, in the coaching space? 

[00:18:12] Craig James: I have three answers. One there’s nothing wrong with being a soldier. To comply a little bit. There are some folks that are completely ICF, International Coaching Federation and go through multiple levels of certifications. Again, I’m not the compliant type. We have our own little secret sauce that we build. 

[00:18:26] Craig James: We’ve always been prone, Sue and I have to build our own thing. We have certain methodologies and tools. We have a tool that we created called ICPA. You were talking about industry. Do I go in the industry sales management, same industry, whatever ICPA is a method that are merged with one of our clients that we captured and codified.

[00:18:45] Craig James: It’s about industry awareness. Do I like this industry? Do I like this playing field? That’s different than the C, which is the company. You could dislike the company culture, but love the industry. And then the P is the position role. I love this industry in this company I just I don’t like the function or the role I’m in. And then the A is the activity. ICPA.

[00:19:07] Craig James: I love problem solving. That may or may not be in alignment with the other parts. And sometimes we’re talking about career or professional path stuff with clients. Everything gets conflated. I don’t want to be here. Maybe it’s because that company culture isn’t right for them, but it’s the perfect position for them so we’ll go through the ICPA process.

[00:19:24] Craig James: So we have tools and techniques back to ICF The Coaching Federation, we’re also not rebellious to a fault to say we’re not going to listen to thousands of people thinking about coaching every day 7/24. So the coaching system that we employ is tried and true. 

[00:19:41] Craig James: And you could say wait, Craig that’s not differentiation. That’s that’s compliant also ran. Yes and no. There’s a lot of folks that call themselves coaches, but they really don’t follow the coaching system and they approach the tried and true things that work in coaching. So we do those things. And we add our own secret sauce. 

[00:19:57] Craig James: Answer number two. Differentiation is there’s two of us. Sue and I will co-coach Now there’s a net effect from a business model standpoint. If we’re both coaching, we don’t necessarily charge twice as much. Sometimes we go with intuition because the energy’s right. There aren’t especially and I don’t want to get into a gender thing, but there are some women with who we work with whom we work who are in male dominated companies and positions. And just me working with that client would be maybe slanted and just Sue working with that client might be slanted some of these dynamics. Sue and I can teeter totter very well with a client and help them navigate some of that. That’s differentiator. I haven’t talked to many or don’t know of many couples that are in business together that coach together. Differentiation point number two. 

[00:20:45] Craig James: Differentiation point number three is something that has emerged, and I think I’m semi competent already but aiming to be even more met with a neuroscientist yesterday who works with coaches to bring an extra secret sauce.

[00:20:58] Craig James: And that is true, credible database knowledge on how this brain thing works. And if one can not just spout cool stuff that you read in an article, but understand how this machine works, how mind body, emotion, vagus nerve, ancient lizard brain versus prefrontal cortex, they run on different clocks, when we’re in fight, flight, fear, fawn, all these things are extremely real.

[00:21:26] Craig James: And being with a client and being able to notice and even help them notice, hold it, this is my amygdala going wacko. We have a saying, cool the amygdala. Credit to Jim Smith, the guy who got us in the coaching. Cool the amygdala. That’s that acorn behind your sinuses that forces us into, Oh my god, it’s a snake, even if it’s a stick.

[00:21:46] Craig James: Fight, flight, survive or freeze. If we can recognize take a breath. And buy time our prefrontal cortex can kick into gear. And we breathe through our nose. We literally cool the amygdala because the amygdala, the ancient brain gets hot when we’re freaked out and irrational, the more we know about that stuff. And the more we can help our clients know about that stuff, when they’re about to spot off in the conference room and get fired. If all they knew is, look, all I have to do is cool my amygdala. It takes about 60 seconds for it to chill down and my prefrontal to kick in so I could be rational 60 seconds spent. If we can bring that stuff to the coaching experience, that’s a differentiation point. Number three. 

[00:22:28] Ron Laneve: One more CatStrat question and then I want to move on to a couple other topics. What’s the split between clients, I would say as individuals versus clients as companies where you’re working with individuals in that company.

[00:22:44] Craig James: It’s very relevant. Consulting companies was almost everything for a lot of years. About 10 years ago, it started to do this. This is coaching. This is consulting like that. Most of our work now is one on one with individuals. Early on when we were coaching one on one, it was born out of consulting gigs with companies. Now it’s the inverse. Some of our one on one coaching with people might lead to a consulting gig with a company the other way around.

[00:23:19] Craig James: It doesn’t mean our consulting isn’t coach like and our coaching isn’t consult like. So some of our consulting is personal. Yesterday I was in a whiteboard session and put the business hat on. Sometimes when we coach, we make a conscious shift to say, I’m going to be your personal business advisor.

[00:23:35] Craig James: Goals, strategy, go to market stuff. We’ll still be consultants, but with an individual, it’s where I, where we are most comfortable. If a consulting gig comes its way we’re making tangible recommendations. 

[00:23:47] Craig James: Consulting. is subject matter expertise, advice, strategy, recommendations. You’re not telling, hopefully you’re asking a lot, but you’re imparting knowledge, helping solve. Coaching fundamentally is about helping the individual, trusting the wisdom within, leveraging their experience and knowledge. They’ll know their business and industry more than anybody, I’m not going to tell them what to do. I don’t judge or grade and help them see it. Help them pull it out of themselves. 

[00:24:17] Craig James: We will shift into consult mode when asked. We have some clients, like I said, yesterday was an example. Help be my consultant for a minute. So we shift, but it’s gone like that. And it’s because mostly back to lifestyle. It’s just friggin satisfying. Working with people and being privileged to be part of their journey. Some might say, Oh, it’s just one person at a time. Okay. One person at a time. And the ripple happens. 

[00:24:42] Ron Laneve: As it relates to experienced talent we’re in this time now where unemployment is very low. And that’s not necessarily the case across all professions and all industries. I think it’s a very specific set of areas and good for those areas. But there’s a lot of professionals out there in software and sales and marketing, et cetera, who are on the market and are aggressively looking for their next thing and are in a highly competitive situation. Applying to jobs and literally having five, six, seven, eight hundred other people applying at the same time. From your experiences, both You know, leading business units and leading teams on the corporate side, and then now over the last several years coaching individuals what advice would you give people, to get through these times to, differentiate themselves in an application process and an interview process? How to stand out, how to get that opportunity more than just applying to a job and throw resumes over the wall?

[00:25:42] Craig James: Matter of fact, there’s a lot of reinvention clients and that’s been before we hit the record button today, you and I were talking a little bit about it’s almost like old news talk about covid.I wince to even say, oh, since covid. But it’s been a very real thing. It still is. And I think we’re still feeling the impact of people searching for what’s it all about, what are they really meant to do, and why am I doing what I’m doing. 

[00:26:03] Craig James: So we’re feeling and seeing an awful lot of folks that are doing an introspect that is not so much about how do I differentiate and get that job. There are some folks, of course, we live in a physical world, I’ve had a gap, I need to get a good job and pay the mortgage. I’m not saying that’s absent, but even those are peppered with a bit more of an introspect. Look inside what are they meant to do? So I think the very definition of work and job, not to mention hybrid and remote and all that stuff what is work anymore? And fractional models, all this stuff has shifted it from nine to five factory worker. What shift did you work on time off time? It’s a big blend.

[00:26:49] Craig James: Marriott was a client of ours years ago, and they called it the master blender before all this covid stuff happened. They were building their hospitality model around the master blender. Even they saw that the business traveler and the family and the kid at the pool. They’re not separatable. Hey, let’s build a product for the business traveler and we’ll build that property. Let’s build a product for the family vacation. Weekender. It’s Nope, it’s all the same. Master blenders.

[00:27:16] Craig James: We are a master blender workforce now. And so it is even when it’s a tactical, I got to get a job. We push actually because we think it’s of service to them to say, wait a sec, hold it. Do you want to go on that linear path and kill yourself and go through a thousand interviews to get that next job when you weren’t happy then. Do you want to just be not happy again? 

[00:27:38] Craig James: One thing that’s clear is with applicant tracking systems and some AI and other stuff, the volume game has changed. The numbers have changed, it seems. People are applying and inquiring and interviewing and the ghosting disease is really affecting people psychologically, emotionally. What’s wrong with me we’re hearing? What’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with my resume? I think part of it is this is going to, I’m not saying just, Oh, tough it up, but it’s a new reality.

[00:28:11] Craig James: There’s just so much noise, it’s crazy. So you know, one piece of advice is I’m not saying don’t feel what you’re feeling. That’s one of the important things in coaching. If you feel it, it’s real. I can’t tell you what to feel. But if you can, recognize, if you can, it’s not you. 

[00:28:28] Craig James: Now that doesn’t mean you don’t do your damnedest to figure out how to be seen. We like to call it role relevant resume-ing I remember the day when I got a car accident actually when I was in my teens driving to the resume place where they printed a hundred of them and you hit there, you might as well etch them in concrete because you paid a hundred bucks was a million dollars when you’re a college kid, they have a hundred pieces of paper with your resume on it and that’s it, you got to use that and that’s all you got. It’s good quality paper. 

[00:28:58] Craig James: Now, crap, look at the. We used to have to go to the library to understand someone’s mission, jump on their website don’t fake it and use all their words and your, but cater your story to theirs. You got to think that way, like a strategic salesperson now.

[00:29:12] Craig James: And other piece of advice is, at least for us, we’re shocked to know that more and more of our business is coming out of, I don’t want to say left field, it’s intentional, but it started passively through LinkedIn. Your content, your reputation, your knowledge base, what you like, what you read, what you share, all these things are your personal brand. Going back to Tom Peters, Brand You. Before we had this era of free agent. You can brand yourself now through social and other media, brand you and be proud of it. And it takes some work. 

[00:29:48] Craig James: Then there’s some old school stuff Ron, that I’d recommend to the experienced talent job position, life path seeker, not job seeker. It’s still who, And who knows you and your reputation and word of mouth and referral and reputation and just I can’t tell you how many clients with whom we work. How do I do the new application thing? What’s the new world of recruiting and interviewing now? 

[00:30:09] Craig James: Okay, we’ll talk about that. But who do you know? Oh, my network’s stale. Okay, let’s talk about that. I worked with this Fortune 5 and that Fortune 5 for 10 years and I was part of this nonprofit, but I’m not anymore. Hold it. Who do you know there? This person, but I haven’t talked to him for four or five years. Okay, talk to him.

[00:30:26] Craig James: And don’t say, I need a job necessarily, but I’m seeking, I’m interested, I’m growing, I’m looking at my next chapter. I’d love your advice. And in an informational interview with someone you trust, I just need 10, 15 minutes, I want to pick your brain.

[00:30:40] Craig James: Suddenly, they say, Oh my gosh, I didn’t even know that, Ron. Do you happen to know Joe over at ABC Corp? He might be interested in chatting with you. I don’t know if they have anything open right now. Then maybe you put, like the old days when I sold, please don’t tell me we’re going after another RFP. If there’s an RFP we didn’t know about, it’s been spec’d for somebody else. Same thing in the job. Do you really want to be the thousandth applicant or do you want to be the seed plant? Hey, Joe, this guy Ron’s really awesome. Do you have a marketing position open? He’s a marketing expert. Not yet, but we’re starting to think about it.

[00:31:12] Craig James: Okay, now what do we spec for you maybe? That stuff is old school, still applies and maybe applies more than ever before. 

[00:31:20] Ron Laneve: How about same question as applies to college students, or those individuals entering the workforce soon, thinking about entering the workforce soon. Any advice for them as far as personal development or professional development areas to focus on? 

[00:31:37] Craig James: You’re right, you aptly describe, we work a little less with that population. So part of this is intuitive and philosophical. And from my own life experience sample of one. I would say if you’re entering that world, it’s like that metaphor of golf.

[00:31:51] Craig James: If you torture yourself with a game of golf, it all starts with the tee box. And we think, Oh, don’t worry about alignment too much. It’s just two degrees here or two degrees there, but two degrees off in alignment and the tee box could be 25 yards to the right or left out 200 yards at 300 yards away and that could mean rough out of bounds versus fairway. So that alignment, you have an alignment opportunity early on in the game and to launch that drive into engineering if you’re meant to be a singer, it can become insatiable. And then you go on that linear path and then it becomes seductive and you’re making the money. And why aren’t you happy? 

[00:32:29] Craig James: Maybe because when you have the moment to say, wait, hold it, what am I really meant to do? Just because my parents or older people tell me I should do, maybe not. Maybe what I should do is what I think I should do. And to listen to those messages and give yourself the courage to comply with a responsible career path, yet also listen to who you are as a human one time around.

[00:32:52] Craig James: That would be my philosophical, the more tangible, you started asking there. What skills to hone, I think you were saying, and I don’t want to sound like a crusty old guy, but I was listening to some podcasts one was really good, the hidden brain talking about out of the matrix, and it was talking about how social mobile connected smart devices are fabulous, but they are brain forming. That it’s almost overprotective, evidently, and I’m no scientist in this, but I’m learning more about it, that these wonderful young talented smart people are adverse to and consciously or unconsciously afraid to be with a human and look them in the eye. 

[00:33:32] Craig James: And a lot of the maybe in the future when everyone, like when we’re all dead and they’re running the world with computers, it won’t matter. We don’t look at humans in the eye anymore. We just think it and things happen.

[00:33:43] Craig James: And for the moment, I think humans interacting with each other, being able to be that SQ, EQ kind of thing, to be able to relate, be at ease in one’s own skin, force themselves into age old stuff, whether it’s Toastmasters or human stuff.

[00:34:01] Craig James: I think those things are still the magic. That’s what I would say. 

[00:34:09] Ron Laneve: Thank you. As always the line you ride between I don’t know how I want to say this. Your philosophical advice and observations coupled with science and methodology is always fascinating. And I think that’s, why I’ve I’m. I’m glad to, I’m just glad that we’re friends and I’m glad that Paul Elliott introduced us several years ago and I’ve gotten to know you.

[00:34:36] Ron Laneve: It’s fascinating. It’s fascinating. So thank you very much for your time. 

[00:34:39] Craig James: Glad to be here, Ron. Always a joy. I could, there’s, I’ve got a whole pile full of compliments to pay back to you, but just know that love and admiration for you is self evident. 

[00:34:49] Ron Laneve: I appreciate it, sir. Talk to you soon.

April 8, 2024